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OpenStreetMap/SE/Proposal to convert keys lst:diarienr, lst:nvrid to ref:SE:diarienr and ref:SE:nvrid

From annawiki

https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/proposal-to-convert-keys-lst-diarienr-lst-nvrid-to-refdiarienr-and-refnvrid/137365

Proposal was made, ad hominem reactions followed:

user NKA

"I think you should stop changing ref’s in Sweden now.

Too much guessing is currently involved, and there is no or little involvement from the Swedish community. Several of the suggested updates are not real refs, they are just extra attributes which were included in earlier imports. A cleanup could be needed, but it will have to be done by people who understand the Swedish source data, preferably the ones who did the original imports. Also, import wiki’s and scripts will need updates. Your edits are already disrupting several update/import scripts which are being used in Sweden (specifically, when identifying administrative boundaries)."

user fjellrev

  1. @Fjellrev why did you downvote asking questions?
    1. Because you are just asking questions without even trying to understand what people tell you.
      1. Where is the evidence?
    2. As long as the answers are in your favour (and people do the work you ask them to do for you (hey do it youself)) everything is fine for you, but as soon as someone does not agree with you you just start to put out questions that you should actually answer for yourself. Take out a mirror!
      1. [@As long as the answers are in your favour] - Which “answers” are in “my favour”
      2. [@ (and people do the work you ask them to do for you (hey do it youself))] - Where did that happen?
      3. [@everything is fine for you, but as soon as someone does not agree with you you just start to put out questions that you should actually answer for yourself.] - Which questions fall under “you should actually answer for yourself.”?

user 02JanDal Jan Dalheimer

  1. "Agree with previous replies, while there are tags in Sweden that would benefit from a cleanup, you are not in the right position to drive it."
    1. On which facts is that statement based? Is it respecting: https://community.openstreetmap.org/faq “Please avoid:” … “* Ad hominem attacks”
  2. "Just as a concrete example; changing lst:diarienr to ref:SE:diarienr would result in a useless tag, in a way which is pretty obvious to any native Swede (or anyone spending 10 seconds googling the terms) (and yes, that also means that the existing ref:SE:diarienr-tags should be renamed, but doing so correctly would require significant detective work)."
    1. @[Just as a concrete example; changing lst:diarienr to ref:SE:diarienr would result in a useless tag, in a way which is pretty obvious to any native Swede (or anyone spending 10 seconds googling the terms)]: "How was that conclusion derived? What makes lst:diarienr and ref:SE:diarienr tags? According to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tags these tag-parts are keys?"
      1. @[How was that conclusion derived]: "Knowing Swedish, a little (on the level of what can be considered common knowledge) about how Swedish governmental agencies work, and thus what “diarienr” means."
      2. @[Why would the addition of “SE:” or “ref:SE:” and lower-casing turn these into “a useless tag]: Because with the prefix lst: they are not useless. (yes, this could simply be solved by keeping the prefix and renaming to something like ref:SE:lst:diarienr, which was my point that you need to have some local language knowledge in order to be able to come up with a working proposal)
        1. @[Because with the prefix lst: they are not useless.]: But as pointed out they didn’t have that prefix before renaming.
          1. NO REPLY FROM 02JanDal
    2. @[(and yes, that also means that the existing ref:SE:diarienr-tags should be renamed, but doing so correctly would require significant detective work).]": “the existing ref:SE:diarienr” are the result of renaming from
      1. "ref:DIARIENR", https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ref:DIARIENR
      2. "ref:diarienr", https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ref:diarienr
      3. "DIARIENR", https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/DIARIENR
      and maybe other variants. Why would the addition of "SE:" or "ref:SE:" and lower-casing turn these into "a useless tag, in a way which is pretty obvious to any native Swede (or anyone spending 10 seconds googling the terms)"
      1. NO REPLY FROM 02JanDal
    3. @ both: Was it checked whether "any native Swede (or anyone spending 10 seconds googling the terms)" 1) inserted "ref:DIARIENR" or "ref:diarienr" or "DIARIENR" into OSM? 2) agreed to the renaming?
      1. NO REPLY FROM 02JanDal

AndersAndersson

  1. @https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8142594/history - It’s a bit scary that you are “organizing” but don’t know that you did change that.
    1. But where is the proof that I did not know that, see “and maybe other variants.” Only few cases where changed from lst:diarienr to ref:SE:diarienr, mostly when lst:nvrid was changed.
      1. Are you saying that it is in your favour that you are making a mess and knowing about it?
        • Your edits does not bring value to OSM.
        • Your edits makes a mess of existing data.
        • You create a conflicts between yourself and the Swedish community.
        • You suck energy from others that could be used for more productive things that could gain OSM.
        • Yes, this is about you, as a person.
        The conclusion for both us and you should be to stop this and focus on something more productive for both you and us.
  2. I think no one in the Swedish community would object a revert of Tobias edits.
    1. Why do you think so?
      1. Because I’ve been in the community for 17 years. I don’t know everybody but I have developed a sence for what people like and not. I also stated that there could be exceptions.
    2. Who is “in the Swedish community”?
      1. I don’t have a list that you can cross check. If you check this forum, other social media places and all edits in Sweden for some years, you will get an answer to that question. I will not provide you with one.
    3. What falls under “of Tobias edits”?
      1. You will not get a list, but I think everybody else, and probably also you, understands that it means the edits you’ve been doing during the latest weeks in Sweden changing misc. import data keys. I do not keep track of all of your edits and I prefers if it could stay that way.
  3. Your questions annoys people. I guess you notice that. I don’t know if you understands why, but if you try to think what the person means instead of questioning every litte detail you would not get the same hostile response.
  4. I think you are dedicated and persistent. If you find the right task you would be very valuable for any project. Please try to listen with the local community if you could agree with them to such task.
  5. Today the data makes some sense to have in OSM, but when messing with it,like Tobias did, it it will take a lot more effort to also look at the history if someone some day would like to really clean it up.
    1. Which edits fall under “messing with it,like Tobias did”?
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